Wednesday, April 2, 2008

Mary and her place

Further conversation from me with the "anti-Catholic" (now called the a-C) when he professed the typical falsehood that "we" worship Mary...went like this... ( the a-C response is in CAPS)

"I imagined we were already beyond the false Protestant belief that Catholics "worship" and "Adore" Mary....I guess we need to go back there and clear that up first. The first thing we have to get beyond is that she is not just a dead person...that would mean she was an unjustified sinner and went to hell. If she entered into heaven, then the RCC goes with the following logic, these are my words:A DEAD PERSON OR ONE WHO HAS FALLEN ASLEEP HAS EITHER WENT TO BE IN THE PRESENCE OF CHRIST OR THEY ARE IN THE OUTER DARKNESS ENDURING ETERNAL SEPARATION FROM GOD The Roman Catholic rite does not hold Mary to any level higher than a Saint. SAINTS ARE THE ELECT OR CHOSEN OF GOD WHO HAVE BEEN BORN AGAIN…IF THEY ARE DEPARTED THEY DO NOT MANIFEST QUALITIES THAT GOD HAS, NOR ARE THEY WORTHY OF ANYHTING MORE THAN YOU AND I, Take my word for it. The volumes of Biblical callouts to the Blessed Mary in that vain do not allow or depict worship of Mary. Only that esteem which the Mother of God would naturally and logically be given is recognized. I DON’T THINK IT ACCURATE TO SAY THAT THE BIBLE SAYS WE ESTEEM MARY, GOD EXISTED AND WAS LONG BEFORE MARY BROGHT THE GOD MAN INTO HIS EARTHLY FORM…SO GOD DOES NOT HAVE A MOTHER IN THIS SENSE OF THE USE…JOHN 1;1 AND MANY INFERENCE THAT OUR LORD SAID, BEFORE ABRAHAM WAS, I AM That esteem or singular position, as there was only one Mother of God...(in contrast to multiple apostles cannonized into sainthood). So Mary's unique part in the reality of Jesus, and those passages which bestow her Divine communion with Jesus on earth and the hereafter give Mary posture that no other has ever had or will ever have, in the view of the Universal Church . SHE DID NOT RECEIVE ESTEEM FROM JESUS HIMSELF, HE ESTEEMED THE CHOSEN AND IDENTIFIED WITH THE BRETHREN, YE ARE MY MOTHER AND MY BROTHER AND SISTER…That logic was never hard for me to swallow. I dont see any worship or adoration of Mary practiced in my Church locally, in the 6 or so other RCC's I've been to in this area, or the Diocese Offices. I dont find that in the Catechism as well. I do find her unique role being defended and used as a conduit for communication in some sacraments, but not worship. NO SUCH CONDUIT IS VALID, AT ALL There are certain liturgical works, NOT FAMILIAR WITH THIS WORD, LITURGICAL WORKS? such as the sacrament of the sick and dying which point to Mary as a source of strength MARY IS NEVER DEPECITED AS A SOURCE OF STRENGTH IN DYING…SO IT IS NOT SO OBVIOUS TO ME, for obvious reasons, she being one who lived through the worlds most horrific loss of a Son, and being a Mother figure of care and love. SHE DID NOT LOSE A SON…HE ROSE FROM THE DEAD THREE DAYS LATER AND IS RULING HIS KINGDOM…THE EXPERIENCE WAS HORRIFIC FOR ALL WHOSE SINS HE BORE ON HIS BODY AND MADE THE WRATH HE ENDURED NECESSARY I suppose one would on the surface view a person, kneeling in a Church, praying out loud to Mary directly as worship, however, that is not what is taught in the Roman Catholic rite. SPEAKING TO SOMEONE IN PRAYER IS A HUGE PROBLEM!!!! HUGE IF YOU STOP AND THINK ABOUT IT, IF YOU STOP DISASSOCIATING IT FROM WORSHIP AND TRULY THINK ABOUT SPEAKING TO A BEING IN PRAYER IS ELEVATING THAT BEING TO A LEVEL WITH GOD, WHICH SHE IS NOT Most likely anyone praying the rosary to Mary is praying for a loved one through that posture of respect and esteem. Cant judge that book by its cover, but I can see how it appears to the uninitiated. I LOVE YOU VERY MUCH, I ENCOURAGE TO NOT BE OFFENDED WITH THE CONTENT NOR THINK THAT SOMETHING THAT HAS BEEN SO COMMON TO US BOTH (MYSELF BEING A CATHOLIC FOR 35 YEARS) IS ACTUALLY TRUE ACCORDING TO SCRIPTURE…THESE THINGS ARE NOT IN THE BIBLE AND IN FACT ARE WARNED AGAINST IN SCRIPTURE IN MANY MANY WAYS

Keep in mind that I am making a soft approach here and it may not be entirely accurate per the canon...but in a breaking the ice kind of way using personal experience as well. Cant we all get along? sheesh.