No Abdication here

Back to the a-C's request that I go line by line IE.:

"GO POINT BY POINT AND TELL ME THAT THIS IS NOT DISHONORNING AND AGAINST SCRIPTURES IN WHAT I SAID....WHAT BIBLICAL SUPPORT IS THERE FOR ANY OF THESE THINGS ………………………….. I WILL NOT IGNORE THEM…FULL OF GRACE IS ALL THAT YOU HAVE CONVEYED AND YOU HAVE FAILED TO ADDRESS STEPHEN OR JOHN THE BAPTIST…NONE HAVE BEEN IGNORED"

JP3 claimed that Mary was his savior when he was shot, his view of Mary is far and above that of simply a departed Saint, she was actively involved in his life and responsible for aspects of his life….She was responsible for his protection, she was responsible for saving his life….He wore her initials on his clothes and so on and so on.

First, his acronym is JP2 not 3.
Second, the fact that I wear a "Fender" logo on my shirt does not mean I worship Fender. It can be said, as you say above, JP2 is a big Fan of Mary. There is nothing in Canon prohibiting anyone, even Peter's successor, from having a tatoo of Mary on his forehead. It does not dishonor or disrespect, just as wearing a Fender shirt does not disrespect Fender.

What Catholics do with Mary is wrong…I don’t have to defend it against your definition of worship. The reality is that it is wrong. Wether you call them worship or not is ridiculous…to say that I don’t understand why Catholics do what -they do is ridiculous…but even more decieiving is to laugh and say….see,,,,,I told you this Is not worship is silly….what ever name you give these is blasphemous against scripture.

What we have discussed, on many occasions, must not have been clear enough. In our conversations your assumed emphasis on the attention Mary receives is far greater than the level of attention most practicing Catholics pay in real life. I nor any Catholic I know, including Priests, Deacons and Catechists dont walk around with a constant adoration and mental vision of Mary. Your emphasis greatly exagerates the proportional amount of attention Mary actually receives in the daily life of a Catholic in general in my experience. In fact, to try and convey this with absolute clarity, Mary is hardly mentioned in the Mass on a regular basis. Its all about Christ.

What Catholics do with Mary is engage her closeness to Christ. All aspects of Mary point to Christ. Everything about Mary is Christocentric. Look at the Wedding feast at Cana in John 3:5 she says "Do whatever He tells you". She said herself in the Gospel of Luke 1:46 "My soul magnifies the Lord".

Her singular role as virgin Mother is engaged via prayer to get results with Christ. JP2 must have gotten results with her engagement/intercession and advocates doing this by wearing her insignia. What is essentially important to address is a distinct difference between Worship and Honor that must be understood. When anyone prays to God, they attach "latria" to this communication. Latria is sacrificial in character, and may be offered only to God. Catholics offer other degrees of reverence to the Blessed Virgin Mary and to the Saints; these non-sacrificial types of reverence are called Hyperdulia and Dulia, respectively. Hyperdulia is essentially a heightened degree of dulia provided only to the Blessed Virgin. This distinction, written about as early as Augustine of Hippo and St Jerome, was detailed more explicitly by Thomas Aquinas in his Summa Theologiae, A.D. 1270, II II, 84, 1: "Reverence is due to God on account of His Excellence, which is communicated to certain creatures not in equal measure, but according to a measure of proportion; and so the reverence which we pay to God, and which belongs to latria, differs from the reverence which we pay to certain excellent creatures; this belongs to dulia, and we shall speak of it further on (II II 103 3)"; in this next article St. Thomas Aquinas writes: "Wherefore dulia, which pays due service to a human lord, is a distinct virtue from latria, which pays due service to the Lordship of God. It is, moreover, a species of observance, because by observance we honor all those who excel in dignity, while dulia properly speaking is the reverence of servants for their master, dulia being the Greek for servitude." From St. Thomas it is apparent that a clear distinction exists among latria and forms of dulia within Catholic theology.

True practicing Catholics know the difference. When a non-Catholic attempts to blur the Worship radar screen with what he sees on the outside, not knowing what is on the inside of said Catholic, thats subterfuge.


We don’t need someone to intercede for us

We agree here. Essential it is not, however it is biblical as stated in Rev. 5:8, thus: "And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints" There are accounts as the benefit of praying to Saints. One either accepts this or does not accept it. What one cannot do is read it, then ignore the content and twist it beyond its intent.

God does not need assistants to bring our requests to him

Even if he did, scripture does not distinguish assistants.

Scripture does as stated above and in Mark 12:26-27, your assertion of the term assistants is not relevant.

Full of Grace is used of other in scripture

Correct but not to the exclusion of Mary.

No one participated in our atonement NO ONE>>>>>>FOR HE MADE HIM WHO KNEW NO SIN TO BE SIN FOR US, THAT WE MIGHT BECOME THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD IN HIM

NOT IN THEM!

We don’t need one to pray for us at the hour of our death (at the instant of death believers go to heaven to be with the Lord (2 Thes) why do I need her to pray for me….

This is repetitive, the "need" may not be there, but the benefit is historically validated by thousands.

deceived Roman Catholics do not go to purgatory, they perish in hell eternally, Mary praying will be of no avail.

Scripture makes reference to Purgatory as a place of cleansing for those believers who are in Christs Grace but who are not sinless enough for admission through the narrow gate:

"Make friends quickly with your accuser, while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison; truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny" (Matt. 5:25-26).

"Each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire" (1 Cor. 3:13-15).

These passages mark plainly the path which Purgation shall take place.

We don’t pray in vein repetition TO GOD OR TO ANYONE

You must be referring to Matthew 6:7–8. "And in praying do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do; for they think that they will be heard for their many words. Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him." Jesus says explicitly that we should not "heap up empty phrases." You may be aware that the word battalogeo is used only once in the New Testament: here in Matthew 6:7. It seems to be a word of special importance. It also can be translated "to babble on" or "to repeat endlessly." You would also logically ask if praying the Hail Mary is not a vain repetition.
Don't stop at the end of verse 8. In verse 9, Jesus says explicitly, "Pray then like this." He then goes on to teach us to pray the Lord’s Prayer (the Our Father). If Jesus was against standardized prayers, why did he give us one to pray? And I presume you would agree that he wanted us to pray this on many occasions.

In addition, not all repetition is vain. Consider the prayers spoken of in Revelation 4:8 offered day and night without ceasing: "Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord God Almighty, who was and is and is to come!" Another repetitious prayer pleasing to God is contained in Psalm 136: "For his steadfast love endures for ever." This phrase is repeated over twenty-five times. Finally, Matthew 26:44 tells us that Jesus himself prayed the same prayer three times in the garden in Gethsemane.

Statues and images of Mary are bowed down to around the world and prayers are offered to her directly...Idols are sold by the millions every year with her as a pendant on woman

It isnt that hard to come to an understanding that we mortal humans are limited in our expression of spirit. Showing reverence for any Holy symbolic statue, image or material thing when it is done with intent to acknowledge the supreme reverence of God is based in respect. One should have a compassionate and loving heart to comprehend that the things put in Gods House are for the purpose of glorifying Him.


Mary was a servant of God to bring about the fulfillment of our Mesiah…John the Baptist was declared to be above all other Men…let’s carve a statue to him and light candles and pray to him!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! while were at it, think of the take if we make one’s for money boxes and kneeling to all the popes….Oh I guess my thoughts are old news…that is what the Vatican did

Now you're getting sarcastic...no comment.